You Minnesotans need to ease up on the buzz.com demands -- we longtime coastal readers of Lileks' Bleat web site can see the writing on the wall -- Lileks collapses over his scanner from an surprise massive heart attack whilst trying to scan Indonesian condom ads from the 1920's- and we lose him. Because those ads were not for buzz.com, no, sir, they were for us...

As much as I like all the present-day conveniences and such afforded by modern times, I occasionally look back with longing to a time, probably 120 or so years back, when people like Fred Phelps could be shot in the middle of the street without so much as a peep from the constabulary. But with "civilization" comes a mawkishly sentimental legislature that disapproves of such actions.

Phelps' following of idiots should be shot for condemning the innocent people who died! I can't imagine the pain of losing a loved one in such a way and then having some insane fanatics protesting at the funeral!!! The stupidity of some people continues to amaze me. I hate to burst their bubble but I don't believe G-d wants any part of those people. I am just so angry!!!

The folks like Nick Coleman who hate the wealthy seem to be trying to catch up to the hate level of the Phelps gang.

Before the bodies were even cold, they were proclaiming the bridge fell down because someone had a few dollars left over after paying his taxes.

The envy crowd hasn't taken up protesting at funerals. Yet.

Fred Phelps reminds me of the line from Star Wars: Who is more foolish, the fool, or the fool who follows him? However, I think it is endemic to the human race to have a tendency to feel comfort in blaming other people for woes suffered by the self.

As for the heat affecting the bridge: I am practically speechless at such a display of ignorance. Weather and climate are related, but not identical, and blaming a rather modest -- though recent -- heat wave (while ignoring longer and hotter ones in the past) is akin to blaming the first corpse in an epidemic for being a vampire.

Perhaps if we sought out the graves of MnDOT engineers from the 1960s, and hammered stakes into their hearts, we could prevent further bridge collapses. Cheaper than maintenance, probably.

Jacob

Here's another take on that Rep. Hortman's comments:
http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/archives/006787.html
I checked Wikipedia and it says that cast iron melts at 1370 C (2489 F). So unless it has been a much hotter summer than I recall, Rep. Hortman should go back to school to try to understand how things really work.

It is not ignorant to presume that temperature has something to do with the structural integrity of something like a bridge. One of the very important factors in designing such a structure is to look at the cycles of expansion and contraction. There is something to be said in the saying "the straw that broke the camels back".

Over in the "Local Headlines" box is a headline "Governor, mayor talk about plans for a 10-lane bridge" (good idea if you ask me).... that goes to a Star-Trib 404 page.

BTW, who is Nick Coleman related to at the Trib that he wasn't given his walking papers long, long, ago?

kohath,

I feel so sorry for the insanely rich people like Carl Pohlad....how do they survive? Life really must be tough for you. Are all the tax cuts you recieved from the Bush administration the last 7 years not enough? How do you feed your kids? How do you survive?

People are upset when working-class and middle-class bear the brunt of maintaining our infrastruction, while guys like Polhad get us taxpayers to build a building for his PRIVATE business. If only I could get tax payers to buy me a building for my private business. People should really look into who the real "welfare" cheats are.

Isn't it about time for another round of tax cuts for the rich?

The ignorance is not from positing a connection between heat and bridge failure.

The ignorance comes from thinking summer heat of a few days was sufficient, and that this was caused by global warming. Climate change -- such as an increase in global temperature -- is real, but an average of weather patterns over time. The way much of the article linked by James was written, the implication was that heat was an unknown item at the time the bridge was designed and built.

We have had hot summers in the past, and we will continue to have them in the future. We have had bitter cold in the past, and will continue to have it in the future. That's part of the weather, which is driven by a seasonal cycle of variation caused by the axial tilt of the planet. Global warming -- a change in climate -- does not mean winter shrivels up and goes away, and that summers are dramatically hotter than they were decades ago. Summers might be longer, and winters shorter, and preciptation may be different in intensity and location, and that's climate; but the actual extremes are pretty much the same.

Was heat a source of stress? Probably. Was it sufficient to cause the bridge to fail? I doubt it. There are a lot of stresses on a bridge. If there was any poor design, it wasn't in forgetting to take heat into account, or the bridge would not have had expansion joints in the first place. The poor design issue stems from the lack of redundancy in the design.

So, was last week's heat wave the "straw that broke the camel's back"? I don't know, but I doubt it.

Here's the thing: If you want to believe hot weather was behind the bridge collapse, then it won't matter what I say, will it? I could say that if heat were so instrumental, then we'd have seen more failures in hotter parts of the country where similar bridges are maintained in worse shape -- but you could say that there has to be a first time for everything. I could say that we've had past waves of hotter temperatures -- but you could say that they merely stressed the bridge close to the breaking point.

All of this is just so much speculation until the folks looking at the remains of the bridge learn what they can.

Jacob

I don't believe anyone that is a devout Christian and has read the new testament could do the things Phelps does. Their anger is most likely from their own insecurities that they've developed since they can't deal with the sin in their own lives. They have to project their anger at themselves over their own failures on innocent people around them. Kind of like the Islamists.
Also, I don't believe tax cuts are a bad thing since revenue has gone up since cutting taxes. Clearly there is a balance between revenues, growth and tax rates and it isn't a simple linear relationship between tax rates and revenue. Any person that seems so concerned about the issues should know this. Unless the real issue is jealousy over not having the things other people do.
Although, I do agree that it is stupid to pay billionaires money to build facilities from which they are going to make money. I guess Republicans have their boondoggles just like Democrats have their boondoggles (ie light rail).

Mark,

Carl Pohlad is about 91 years old. He's probably not going to be with us too much longer.

I'm sure that's a comfort for you. You can chill some champagne for the party you're going to have when you can finally read his obituary in the Star Tribune. I'm sure a lot of you in the envy crowd will be having parties for that occasion.

I'd encourage people to strive for positive things instead of hate and envy. Hating Carl Pohlad and everyone else with a few dollars more than you isn't making you happy or healthy or improving your life or anyone else's life.

The difference between gay and wealthy is that you can't take gay away from the gay, but wealth on the other hand, we can take that back from the wealthy.

Jacob...absolutely I agree with you. It is in my nature to speculate on what possibly happened to the structural integrity of the bridge, but to say that the recent heat had anything specific to do with the failure is at best unwarrented. My point was that it is not ignorant to at least consider it. If anything in the argument about heat was ignorant it is the belief that any singular temperature event is all about global warming. Global warming is about average temps all over the world, not specific temperature events in our area or any singular area.

Robert

Phelps is another example of a cult with outrageous ideas, akin to Heaven's Gate (they thought the could reach heaven by jumping on the butt end of a comet), Jonestown, etc. He's just another charismatic nut job with an agenda who has a god complex (note the lower-case 'g').

I have relatives who lived in Topeka, so I heard about Brain-Dead Fred 20 years ago when he usually just made noise in the Topeka area. But his wires are short-circuiting faster than Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson, and the worst part is the press actually listens to this nut, who, apparently, has never read the New Testament.

On the subject of the Old Testament, I think it would be a great idea to have a public stoning of Phelps and his lot. We could sell tickets/stones and raise money to replace the bridge without having to rely on the anti-transit-funding government for handouts.

I think some politicians have a tendency to latch on to whatever the "issue of the day" is and run with it, if they think it will earn them a juicy sound bite or quote in the paper. (Even though they may not know bog-all about whatever it is they're talking about.) Everyone knows global warming/climate change has been getting an incredible amount of media attention; the bridge collapse is a huge topic, too...so, why not combine them, as a guarantee that you will get the voters' attention? Fortunately, it's usually fairly easy to tell which ones are genuinely informed/concerned about an issue, and which ones are just using it to make voters think they're hip to all the subjects that have been topping the evening news recently.

Maybe if we all chant "Leave and Never Come Back!" Fred Phelps and his band of contemptable low-lifes will disappear forever. Of course, that didn't work for Gollum either....

foof1001--understand your sentiments as I'm a longtime DC reader of Lileks.

Give it a rest.

When a reporter cold calls a representative within hours of an event and asks for their thoughts...and the reporter gets an answer of I don't know, they probably need to look at this, or this or 10 other things - it is irresponsible for the reporter to select two of those only to report, and even more irresponsible for the folks here to pick up on just one to spin in order to forward their agenda.

Surprised that Lilek's didn't add the implication of corrosive pigeon dung as another possible contributing factor - read that in the Strib the other day.

I grew up in Texas, and moved to Minneapolis 24 years ago. I have never loved this place more than when I was watching the very first responders: the civilians who scrambled onto those dangerous, fallen bridges to help the trapped and injured. I have seen Minnesota people respond to emergencies with courage, initiative and skill many times.
On the other hand, the reflex that makes people want to bankroll Carl Pohlad...I don't get it.

Now, Kohath, stop using sockpuppets to reinforce your point! Or, at least learn to write a more convincing one! Your character "Mark" is so transparently over-the-top and unhinged that no-one will ever believe that he's a real commenter. If you're going to create fake liberal strawmen, just learn tone it down a bit so it's not so obvious.

(Um, that was you, Kohath... wasn't it?)

;)

~Lee

Not me - I'm well off and so are most of my siblings.

I just can't stand wealthy bums who expect free rides, tax breaks, etc. and then look down their noses at some one who gets an unemployment check or wonders why people in the Netherlands, Canada, France etc. have health care systems that work. I'd rather see a nickel or a dime a gallon go to roads and infrastructure than the Dick Cheneys of the world.

Nope - it isn't the wealthy - it's anti-social greedy jerks that I have run out of patience with.

Fred Phelps followers are from a small non affiliated (with reality) church. Fred founded it and 99% of its' membership is his family. He put all of his sons through college and they are attorneys. This way he can sue people and insulate himself from lawsuits.

As for "rich" people not paying enough taxes. Please define what are "enough" taxes for people to pay. As a percentage of income "rich" people pay more in taxes than "poor" folks and typically demand less government service in return.

As far as climate change, I would think that heat would be a good thing. Cold tends to make steel brittle, but heat would make it flexible. And when is some environmental group going to sue those people for dumping their cars into the Mississippi River?

The bridge looks like late USSR:Bankrupt, corrupt with a disintegrating infrastructure. This is what our neocon's small tiny government looks like.
The new de-icing spray that Minnesota has been using corrodes metal?
I hear of a 5-cent gas tax to aid bridge inspections? Well some of us believe that taxs are unconstitunal. Some of us disagree how our taxs are being spent!
The so called federal reserve is a private company and the international bankers and families like the Bush's have been using the King James Bible and fear base politics that the Roman empire, among others set forth to profit off of war for a long time and many many people believe this but many are afraid to say anything for many reasons.
We will look back on this time in history in utter disbelief that we ate meat, that we were violent in any way, that we had addiction issues (the "WAR" on drugs perpetuates racism.), that we used the earths resources the way we do. Gas/oil is the lubrication for the tectonic plates. Corn is a terribly wasteful crop! Hemp can save our planet! We can make oil/fuel,textiles,paper, and it's a far better food source than almost anything on the face of the earth, better nutrition, better for the soil. Wake up people the Jesus fish is a astrological symbol of Pieces "Jesus" never was real! It's another "Sun God" "Light of the World" ect...
Quit being a victem!

Watch zeitgeistmovie.com

Learn, lets evolve and love each other! We are all our own GODS! We create our reality. LOVE IS MY RELIGION.
Love and respect to those that lost life and loved ones in this terrible accident.
One world One love.

Thanks, Mr. Peterson - I had not yet had my dose of Daily Crazy.

Two groups, eh -- one group a bunch of extremist religious nut cases with bizarre and dangerous beliefs;

...the other, a group of people who think God doesn't like gay tolerance.

That was a Class IV rant there, Dan. Points awarded for lack of cohesion, multi-topic tangents, and drug references.

The Russian judge, unfortunately, gave it a 3.0.

No doubt the people who believe that the globally warmed late afternoon sun is capable of collapsing a bridge are the same people who also believe that jets crashing into the twin towers are not capable of creating a fire hot enough to melt steel.

And can anyone account for Cheney's whereabouts on that fateful day? I hear he has a giant magnifying glass.

This creep and his groupies aren't welcome here in the twin cities,no Minnesota nice for him.I doubt God would
drop a bridge because we tolerate all people no mattter
who they are.Maybe a house on Fred And his Klan

_@_v - lets hope the airport greeters remember to give fred phelps and his party directions into town that take him over the i35w bridge and that it's a very foggy day...

According to an article about Phelps, he used to drive his kids around and have them sell chocolate bars and magazine subscriptions. Some of that candy came from a Minneapolis distributor, who had to sue Phelps to get paid.

"Also in September 1972, a Shawnee County District Court judge ruled in favor of the Money Tree Candy Co., of Minneapolis, Minn., which had filed suit against the church. The jury ruled the church owed the company $5,760 for candy the church purchased."
Source: http://cjonline.com/webindepth/phelps/stories/080394_phelps10.shtml

Hello TekTatorV,

You are absolutely right. Phelps is a phony, and a sad example for Christians who are genuine in their faith.

However, you might rethink comparing "the Islamists" to Phelps. Just as there are phony Christians out there, there are also phony Islamists. It's only the extremist Muslims who give the genuine followers of the Muslim faith a bad name.

If you throw all followers of Islam into the same pot with Phelps, I'm afraid you are in danger of using the same simplistic "logic" old Freddy has been using for years.

Sincerely and in good faith,

I would like "Anonymous" to define "anti-social greedy jerks". How would he/she compare them to the social greedy jerks, or the anti-social generous jerks..... or, er socially friendly greedy nice people. Why is it that liberals find it so easy to put everyone in to such nice little boxes so they can be comfortable in their very warped world view? Oh, by the way, it is fact that the top 5% of wage earners pay over 50% of total taxes, and no, I am not among that 5%. Someday, we'll see.

No doubt the people who think the globally warmed late afternoon sun caused the bridge to collapse also believe that jets flying into the Twin Towers could not cause a fire hot enough to melt steel.

Does anyone know where Cheney was last week? I hear he has a giant magnifying glass and, being from Wyoming, he hates Minnesotans.

*sigh* I hate to turn buzz.mn into LGF Lite, but here goes:

"I just can't stand wealthy bums who expect free rides, tax breaks, etc..."

"Wealthy bum" is an oxymoron. Yeah, there are plenty of rich people who didn't earn it themselves, but life isn't fair. Most of the wealthy work have worked quite hard to get what they have; as for those that haven't... well, what're you gonna do? Walk up and take their money from them? (Never mind.)

"...and then look down their noses at some one who gets an unemployment check..."

Hold on a second. Do you actually know any of these people? How many do you encounter, say, each week, "looking down their noses" at the unemployed hoi polloi? Or are you simply fantasizing? Just wondering.

"...or wonders why people in the Netherlands, Canada, France etc. have health care systems that work."

Dude, warn me before you say things like that, so I have time to swallow my mouthful of beer.

"I'd rather see a nickel or a dime a gallon go to roads and infrastructure than the Dick Cheneys of the world."

Yeah, I hear you. Total federal outlays for 2006 were well over $2 1/2 trillion, and I'm sure all of it went right into Dick Cheney's bank account. Not a penny to infrastructure improvement. No, siree.

"Nope - it isn't the wealthy - it's anti-social greedy jerks that I have run out of patience with."

I think we can all count the stitches on that hanging curve...

Speaking of Jr. High Science, has it occured to you that differend materials expand and contract at different rates? Like concrete and steel? Minnesota is a land of extreme temperatures, both hot and cold, and the extended heat would not have helped. Bridges are meant to expand and contract, but what are the thresholds. I can guarantee the designers never could have projected the extreme volume of cars and SUV's this bridge was sujected to, nor the rising average air temp.

Suck it up, our consumerism and consumptionism are changing the world and killing us.

On Phelps. If this guy had started out picketing the funerals of cheerleaders, Republicans and dairy farmers (categories non-exclusive), then he'd be sitting in Gitmo right now sucking his thumb as a DOMESTIC TERRORIST.

I've faced this guy and I say it is unfortunate that Liberals are not as armed as Right Wingnuts.

I had this fear for a second all the comments would be about how much Minnesotans love Fred Phelps and that Minneapolis should have had burning pits a long time ago for all da geyz (and Hennepin Ave prostitutes). But no, faith restored, we are not as bigoted as I thought (well only maybe when our latte doesn't come up right).

I keep cringing everytime I read "design flaw" or "blame the designer" because a Norwegian built that bridge (Sverdruuuuuuuup) and Norwegians like Cappelen and Ousted hella built almost every other bridge (Franklin, Third Ave, etc) on da river. Kind of makes me sad ol' Norske getting bashed in his grave right now.

Phelps had better check local ordinances before protesting. In Ham Lake they passed an ordinance against protesting at funerals. As much as I'm against the government telling me what I can and can't do, I was happy to see this. It's pretty pathetic that we have to make acting in poor taste illegal.

About the heat... saw a t-shirt when I was on RAGBRAI last month. It said "It's not so much the heat, it's the stupidity." Odd how it applies to this situation.

Funny...yesterday I sarcastically suggested that "Isn't it time for another round of tax cuts for the wealthy?"....when all of the sudden, I found out...that's exactly what Bush is trying to do.

Yes...are infrastructure is crumbling, which is going to cost billions of dollars to repair...and Bush's suggestion is to shift the burden of those repairs to working- and middle-classes.

Clinton restored reasonable tax rates to the wealthy during his term (after years of trickle down policies from Reagan and Bush 1)....and guess what....Millionaires didn't end up in the soup lines and we had the best economy (which benefited ALL people) in our nations history. Haven't we realized yet that "trickle-down" economics is just income transfer to the wealthy?

I rarely read blogs. I happened upon this thread by accident. These are examples of why I don't read blogs. They are written by self-important, arrogant idiots who think their opinions really matter.

no, Nick Coleman doesn't hate wealthy people - he rightly has issues with those in charge of government (and all the rights and responsibilities that that entails) while fundamentally discounting the value of government for any reason.

Yes, the reasons for the collapse are not known yet. But what is known is that inspectors warned about this structure for years (as they have with many) including a report recommending reinforcement in 2006 that MNDot kicked back to the consulting engineer for a more cost effective solution. Would that report have been kicked back if someone else had been running MNDot? How many other reports like this one suffered the same fate? Good questions that need answers and ultimately, solutions that need funds. That's Nick's point, and he's dead on.

has it occured to you that differend materials expand and contract at different rates? Like concrete and steel?

Apparently concrete is a sort of miracle creation. It's expansion and contration rate is the same as steel.

Bridges are meant to expand and contract, but what are the thresholds. I can guarantee the designers never could have projected the extreme volume of cars and SUV's this bridge was sujected to, nor the rising average air temp.

Actually materials science has existed a long time, and the range of temperatures and relative expansion rates was not discovered yesterday. I think you can take it to the bank that global warming didn't make the bridge fall down.

"Hold on a second. Do you actually know any of these people? How many do you encounter, say, each week, "looking down their noses" at the unemployed hoi polloi? Or are you simply fantasizing? Just wondering."

I'm not the author of the original post, but I must respond to this part. The answer is "yes", I work closely with and interact with people who hold this viewpoint on a daily basis. Every. Single. Day. And it disgusts me. Every now and then I'll rebut, but then the conversations turn ugly, so I let it slide. But people who hold this warped view exist in all walks of life (even low income walks of life). This information should help you with your case of "just wondering".

One thing that strikes me about some of the entrees here is the violence expressed! Wow! Hugs for everyone! Come on every one GROUP HUG! HEY ""Fortworthology" did You grab my ass!? kidding! calm down! Funny thing is as anti violence as I am I can probably take 90% of the fat lazy Amoricians out there. I have studied Kali,Kung Fu, Knife defense among other martial arts.And I am probably more fit than 90% of the people out there?Of course I ride a bike everywhere I go! You know what driving a car will get ya? FAT!

So "wealth hating"? Again quit being a victim! Here's how :
Riding a bicycle = not buying gas/oil and of course not buying new cars. Do any of You think that the CEO's of any of the auto companies give back to the people?

Buying anything at the mall of america (aka "The Fall of Amorica") or buying from Wall Mart. What are we supporting? Buy used clothing or make it Yourself or buy from someone that makes it in Your community!

Buying food! Buy Your food from local farmers! Buy from independent family farmers ONLY! Buy grass fed humanly slaughtered beef. Free range chicken, ect.If Ya can't find these products eat beans for Your protein until You find a source for Your meat, if You must eat it. Buy organic from a co-op!
Don't support the people that You may think are making money unethically.
Don't watch TV! Don't buy TV's! Don't listen to the pop culture advertising!
What You give attention to You will get just that!Simple as breathing!

And people I know I am not the best writer in the traditional since of the Kings (James) english. But hey I have good loving messages and if Ya don't like it I'll give You a hug! I'm "crazy" like that!

The problem with that is, guys like Fred Phelps would have started shooting those they don't like long before anybody though of shooting Fred....

....Nick Coleman has issues...... period; is he "dead on"? More likely brain dead.

Consumerism isn't killing us. Or, if it is, it's doing so inefficiently. Our life spans are longer now than since Methuselah's grandkids left this mortal coil.

Consumerism creates jobs. Suburbs give many of us what we consider a better quality of life. You may disagree. I'm happy that you like the density of the city. But it's a preference, and I prefer the 1/2 acre lot where I live. Yes, I have a longer commute than many (though shorter than many too.) Since I like to drive, and find it relaxing, I don't think it a major trade off for the quality of life I have. I buy from big box retailers and from mom-n-pop boutiques. It's not an either/or proposition.

Consumerism (i.e. capitalism) is, in my mind, a good thing. Greed is bad. The two are not the same thing.

Oh, and Rev. Phelps needs to repent and ask forgiveness for the hate he's dished out.

Considering some of the ludicrous things Lileks has written about Iraq over the last couple years, I would think that he would find himself in good company with Phelps, LaRouche, et. al.